MB:129 with Michelle Janikian, Your Psilocybin Mushroom Companion

Gill hangs out with Michelle Janikian, Writer 🍄Author "Your Psilocybin Mushroom Companion" 👽Writer, Editor, “Human” 🌀 michellejanikian.com tap.bio/@michelle.janikian

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"King without a Throne" is performed by Bad Hombres

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King without a Throne
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Transcript

three two Uno hello what's up Michelle

0:07

not much how you doing I'm doing well and yourself good yeah thanks for asking thanks for

0:15

uh coming on and and doing the podcast I really appreciate it no I'm excited to be here I was really

0:21

excited to get the SE awesome yeah we have a good uh reach

0:27

uh outreach program right here at uh MB media

0:32

I said uh I read your book and and before we uh started I was telling you

0:39

the little stories about how um oh by the way if you haven't

0:44

recognized uh Michelle jennekean's name uh on the uh on the podcast she

0:53

read uh wrote a book uh regarding the psilocybin mushrooms and uh one of my

1:01

favorite books that I like to read and that I like to give away your uh psilocybin mushroom companion

1:08

ah yeah thank you that means a lot I appreciate it and then like I was saying before uh going

1:15

um before we started recording that uh once uh my friend I hear my friends talk

1:21

about uh that they want to start experiencing mushrooms I usually I give

1:26

them the book that's awesome no that means a lot that's kind of how I thought it would

1:36

there you go oh that's cool that that's a good way to put it my cereal Network just like Fred heads of friends or

1:42

family you know I always thought it would be the more experienced person kind of initiating their friend or

1:48

family member great to hear that

1:53

yeah yeah once I once I hear them say hey like uh have you heard of micro

1:58

dosing and I and I tell them do you got about 10 hours that we can set aside so

2:06

we can we can talk about it but don't don't hear it from me uh check out this

2:13

book dude so I I give them the book and um most of them don't give it back which

2:18

is fine I just usually get another copy it's okay I like that system actually

2:23

that works out for me pretty well you see a high increase in Book Sales

2:30

you know why there you go in Southern California you know why thank you thank you actually so much

2:37

so what uh gave you the first I know you probably talked about it a little bit in the book

2:42

um how uh like what was the first moment that you

2:48

thought you know what I'm gonna write a book about uh psilocybin yeah

2:54

moments a good question I don't know if I have like an exact story about the

2:59

moment but the idea was to write a book about mushrooms that was like unbiased

3:06

it wasn't like trying to like you know it wasn't too dogmatic about anything like any school of thought I felt like a

3:15

lot of the books on psychedelics were either like super scientific or really spiritual and there's nothing wrong with

3:21

either but I guess I always thought the average person was coming from somewhere

3:27

in the middle um and that to like explain everything that's going on in this like psychedelic

3:33

world it's like seems like now it's everywhere and just kind of everyday language like how I would talk to my mom

3:40

or my friends who like also have never tried any psychedelic before like

3:45

um and just like give them the non-biased like low down on everything you need to know to do this in a you

3:51

know safe responsible way the original pitch was how to trip like an adult

3:57

yeah that title didn't make it in the end but

4:02

uh just trying to Turtles but you know this isn't some crazy hippie thing or like you know it's not just for kids or

4:09

whatever like you know there's some really serious stuff going on here but uh just and this is what you need to

4:16

know maybe before going into it to have a safe good time or you know a beneficial time with mushrooms

4:23

right and you brought up a really good point about most uh psychedelic books

4:29

being very um I guess uh the the lingo the

4:34

scientific lingo uh especially in uh the Psychedelic explorers guide by uh who

4:43

was it that fatiman James fatiman yeah right and which was very heavy in just

4:50

scientific lingo and I can barely read a few pages where I had to like stop Googling

4:56

and um like your book came across as very uh I was it was easy to grasp and and

5:04

just like you said that um just uh relaying the message about uh

5:11

psychedelics

5:20

like explainer journalism work and I'd been writing about cannabis for a pretty long time and you know the transition

5:26

into psychedelics was a pretty natural one obviously and to just keep that kind

5:32

of um educational Spirit Alive like this is you know without the stigma without the

5:39

drug war but also like there's all this kind of new or like kind of spiritual or

5:44

scientific not stigma but just like you know Point of View kind of an angle it

5:49

kind of feels like a narrative sometimes and I just wanted to do something just straight up and that's what I tried to do with my journalistic work about

5:55

cannabis and Other psychedelics Drugs plant medicine I don't really care what

6:00

word you use I don't know the word plant medicine yeah

6:07

uh and so yeah it was a natural transition kind of like um

6:14

and you know my first it's my first book too so like how I like moved into like more longer form just like explainer

6:21

work and and yeah luckily it's been resonating with a lot of people so I feel really just grateful and glad it's

6:27

out there and people are finding it useful and and before this book he wrote

6:33

for Playboy you wrote for High Times herb magazine uh double blind uh

6:40

actually psychedelics today uh I uh I I

6:46

haven't really caught up on their podcast but I I I heard the interview uh

6:52

with you on there um uh big buds team Vogue uh I mean all the

6:59

list goes on and on for Michelle so um I mean

7:07

awesome great pieces like uh uh like the one in uh enrolling Stone

7:12

and there I can't remember the exact piece but um yeah that was on cannabis

7:19

legalization in Mexico actually oh it was in 2007. so already like so much has

7:26

happened but kind of when the conversation started I was reporting on that I was here I was like let's go and

7:33

and trying to follow that story which is still not totally legal but they're working on it really even since 2007.

7:41

that was 2017 actually oh 2017. okay um but still like five years ago and um

7:48

there's just been a long process here to to go through like the

7:54

um legalization process it's on the way but yeah how how different is it like

8:00

kind of the stigma behind it in Mexico versus the stigma here yeah I guess

8:05

that's kind of like it's funny when I first started reporting on it I was newer to Mexico and I was like so

8:11

excited and I was like man in a few years we're gonna have dispensers come in California and no I didn't understand

8:16

actually culturally the stigma is still pretty strong um it's changing I've been witnessing it

8:23

changing definitely it's definitely more people are definitely more open you know like

8:29

Tia's your mom moms are more open like you know medical like they're hearing about the medical stuff but still

8:35

there's a pretty big stigma like oh you're gonna be like a lazy Stoner or whatever um but it's changing there's a lot of

8:42

like really cool folks here working on that um and yeah I've had like I've made like

8:48

a lot more like weed tea bags for my friend's mom oh wow than I did when I first got here but it's it's just it's

8:56

it's happening but it's it's just like maybe we're California I'm not from California but what I imagine maybe

9:01

California was like 20 30 years ago um so maybe it can be where California is now in and some more time but yeah

9:09

definitely because I I feel like I my family's from Mexico and I I travel frequently there and I don't think I

9:16

ever seen my cousins be like we're gonna go for a walk you know those walks yeah

9:21

the the infamous walk on Thanksgiving with your cousins

9:27

I I it doesn't it doesn't happen I don't and if if my family does smoke weed or

9:33

do any psychedelics or anything like that I have no idea it's just something that's still very taboo and private too

9:41

and you know like Catholicism is so much more of like a culture here I also grew

9:46

up my mom is Catholic and there's just like a lot of Shame involved in like having fun and I feel like that can like

9:54

continue that continues culturally and for a lot of different like not just

9:59

Mexico but like Catholic dominant countries tend to be I don't know a

10:04

little stuck up about things that are fun but also there's like a lot more history

10:11

to hear just like with you know more like indigenous plant medicine and

10:17

ceremony um not exactly being stigmatized but there's just so much more control

10:22

context here uh than in America well and also here like all the hippies in the

10:29

60s came down here to kind of just like have a free-for-all with mushrooms and weed and stuff and so there's actually

10:35

kind of a big stigma against that it's like oh those hippies are like oh are you a hippie you know you like cannabis

10:42

or mushrooms but it is changing people are definitely opening up especially to the medical

10:48

benefits of both of many kinds of these

10:54

medicines so it's interesting time to be anywhere I think and watch that America as well

11:00

um so what do you think the big pushes in in Mexico like in in changing uh I guess

11:08

in changing people's minds about um cannabis and psychedelics

11:13

what do you mean big push like like I mean the I mean okay so what what

11:21

exactly is the status of cannabis in Mexico

11:27

um I'm not currently reporting on it but it's not legal yet it is decriminalized like you can have up to five grams on

11:34

you and it's like decriminalized but that's also you know I don't know people

11:40

like I don't know I wouldn't travel with a lot of cannabis anyway oh yeah just in

11:45

case but uh right um and so what's happened here is that

11:52

it's different than in America where like state by state we legalized cannabis right and that's how it was

11:58

that's how it's changing here the first step was a Supreme Court case that

12:05

argued that having cannabis illegal is like an infringement on your civil

12:12

liberties like a specific civil right that's like the freedom to personality essentially okay and and they won and so

12:21

after that there was and then you have to win the same argument like three

12:26

times for it to pass into like the Senate and then the Senate has to approve it and it has to move through

12:32

like the houses of government and so there were three successful court cases

12:39

and then it went to the Senate and it's kind of been stalled for a couple of years

12:44

um there's definitely been I see like active of us I know going to speak to the Senate so it's still like an active

12:51

conversation but basically they're stuck in the step of like writing all the regulations and figuring out all right

12:58

how it would really work and I think that's kind of where it comes down like culturally like I think it's the

13:04

lawmakers who might be like is Mexico really ready for this

13:09

um and they have all their like constituents or whatever to consider but there are definitely benefits right in

13:16

addition to the medical benefits which is kind of what started all the court cases and stuff like little kids with um

13:22

seizure disorders right that we're getting benefits from CBD oil I think

13:28

there's also like there could be a lot of tax money benefits right like you could make money for states that could

13:35

really use it but um I don't know if it would work here the system has a lot of problems right

13:43

so there's a lot to figure out I think before it can happen but I do hope it does I do think that it's a really good

13:49

thing but it's just taking a while and by the way I don't think we stated this but uh Michelle's in Mexico at the

13:56

moment that's why she can be inside the studio so um what uh what what state are

14:02

you in exactly I know you said it off air but yeah I live in Chiapas I've been

14:08

here for about eight years okay Amber do you know where that is I don't know where I do I do it's in the South it's

14:16

the state that borders Guatemala oh okay oh you're down south

14:21

yeah but I'm also up in the mountains so it's like chilly here really the low is like

14:28

47 tonight yeah it's oh wow as soon as you leave the mountain and go to like a big city an hour away it's really hot

14:36

but yeah what made you want to live in Mexico

14:42

oh that's a whole long story but it's a loaded question right there right

14:48

Mexico's helped me so much I love this country I was a traveler first when I

14:54

was really young you know I was in my first time I came here I was 20 and then

14:59

I did a long trip here when I was 22 and then a friend of mine died when I was 24

15:06

and that's when I came down here and I was a traveler and I came I went back and forth to New York where I'm from a

15:12

few times but I basically haven't really come back since then and now you know

15:19

I'm a resident of Mexico and um I love it here I consider it my home

15:25

wow and where are you originally from I was born in New York City oh okay um I

15:32

grew up in New Jersey oh wow really that's awesome that's like totally uh different from uh Mexico

15:39

and yeah especially like I live in like a small

15:45

City it's a much slower Pace it's it's definitely like healed me from New York Library New York Life is toxic

15:52

and I do feel like I'm finally slowing down sometimes other people pass me on

15:58

the street and it's like a really big accomplish you're used to the the fast life out in

16:05

New York you were I was I mean but I haven't lived there now you know in a long time so

16:12

um but yeah yeah when I lived there I was always in a rush I lived pretty far away from Manhattan Queens so I was

16:20

always like on the subway I like lived oh wow

16:25

different pace I bet um yeah I bet so um

16:31

how did you start um reporting on cannabis

16:36

[Music] um

16:41

like what I don't I don't have like a story for this but it kind of happened I

16:49

guess it felt it feels like it just I'm so I'm passionate about cannabis I have

16:54

my 420 times above my head um I've always been a cannabis consumer

17:00

but I actually came um more from the content marketing side

17:05

I was working for a friend of mine from University um and I'm just like digital marketing

17:11

and she kind of pivoted her business um to focus on cannabis it was right

17:17

when cannabis was being legalized in Colorado she was in California it wasn't yet legal but everyone was like

17:23

preparing that was around like maybe 2005 2006 or maybe earlier this is more

17:31

like I guess I wasn't I I was writing about I was still at College then so

17:38

this for me is more like 2015. um

17:43

because adult use only came into California around then right it actually

17:48

hasn't been that long oh okay um anyway and so I was her Ghostwriter

17:54

for a while I just really oh I didn't have the confidence I didn't really think I could do that whole thing that

18:02

whole world but um eventually I quit to try and it just worked out

18:08

um and that's around the time that was around 2017 and once around the time

18:13

yeah I wrote for that article for Rolling Stone was one of my like my breakout pieces and then I started just

18:21

getting a lot of work for a while and just was like yeah kind of overwhelming and crazy but exciting

18:28

um and but yeah you know I'm passionate about cannabis but yeah I didn't like pursue it I don't know like on my own

18:35

that just seemed really hard it it kind of uh cannabis writing chose you you

18:41

were Jack dragged into it Kicking and Screaming kind of thing yeah definitely it was a horrible horrible

18:49

I feel really lucky it's kind of crazy to think about like um I do thank cannabis and mushrooms

18:56

which is like how I got my star I've always wanted to be a writer but I don't know it's hard it's really competitive

19:03

um and I don't know it can take a lot of guts to try I suppose yeah but yeah we'd

19:10

found me and was like no I'm gonna put you to use and the mushrooms were like wait wait we've got a huge tree too

19:18

so what uh what actually what prepared you to write um to write your book to write your

19:25

mushroom book what did you start I because I know you did your your cannabis work however did

19:33

you uh start writing uh reporting on psilocybin before you wrote your book

19:43

psychedelics for emotionally Playboy a little bit for herb I think

19:49

um for like a year or two um and

19:56

yeah and mushrooms so then that was around the time that Michael pollan's

20:01

book came out how to change your mind and there was just all this interest oh okay that's right yeah and his book was

20:09

cool right but it really was like don't do mushrooms unless you're with a professional except it's okay for me to

20:15

do it and this is when I did it and I was like wait wait a second there's something not right here we should yeah

20:23

let me let me write about it and you read about it for about three hours and and you can't do this and uh yeah you

20:32

know and so also I guess also part of what prepared me was just like mushrooms you know I'd been eating mushrooms since

20:39

I was a teenager um and it was really interesting to watch it change from this like kind of

20:46

crazy drug that I did that not a lot of other people really wanted anything to do with to like now this like mainstream

20:53

there was all this interest people wanted articles about the use and all this stuff and I was like wait that same

21:01

like crazy world that I like to go to like one search twice a year is now this

21:06

like therapy cure-all like how does this work and so I kind of just started

21:11

investigating it um trying to like make the connection from this experience that I knew to like

21:18

how is this work for healing um and and then I learned so much and it

21:24

was actually really surprising and it was beautiful and and it really felt really special and of course it does

21:30

because mushrooms just Everything feels really significant but like and then it

21:35

was like oh my God I'm already in Mexico and mushrooms are from like the state north of me this is crazy like this must

21:40

be fate and um and yeah I put everything that I

21:46

learned into the book and I interviewed a lot of experts and just also regular mushroom people you know people who like

21:53

to just use them on their own little routines and ways and put it all together

21:59

um and that's how it how it came together I'm not like a guide I'm not I'm you know I'm not a scientist I'm not

22:06

even a therapist um I'm just a writer with an interest and took it really really far and here

22:13

we are yeah but I mean sometimes that's all you need you need to have the passion for

22:19

what you're you're writing about or what you're trying to

22:25

um I guess what you're trying to convey in in your message right

22:30

and I felt like I was kind of coming from the same place as the what I imagine the read

22:36

case I was also learning all this new stuff and I was making this connection right like I said and and and I'm also

22:43

someone who struggles you know with my uh with anxiety depression things you know I understood

22:51

the need or the one um and to be able to put it all together for people

22:57

um I'm really glad I did I you know I've had a lot of kind of like imposter

23:02

syndrome about it more so when it first came out because everyone else was like a scientist okay there is this whole

23:10

kind of idea where it's like I don't know oh you know I'm not a I'm

23:16

not an expert I guess like you know I'm a right I'm a journal I know about this you know yeah and it's pretty serious

23:23

stuff and everyone else talking is like a PhD or they're you know been a

23:28

underground guide for 30 years and I was like oh [ __ ] but

23:35

um luckily you know I do think what I put together um was needed and and people do seem to

23:42

appreciate it so I've kind of shed a little bit of that luckily it took a couple years but

23:49

um yeah that's where I can come from anyway I wish I had my first copy of the book Because I had like

23:56

chapters and chapters of line just highlighted and um like small little notebook uh small

24:03

like little um like uh like bookmarks in the entire book and and that one who did I give it

24:10

to I gave it to one of my friends um I think it was a co-worker actually

24:15

it was weird it was just like she was she was uh we were like talking about it

24:21

like off to the side you know uh you know those conversations oh yeah

24:27

everyone comes to me for those now and she just brought up uh oh like uh

24:34

like micro dosing and I was like okay all right watch out girl here you go take this

24:41

read it um but I I need to pick up uh another copy so I can give it away probably in

24:48

the next couple days but I I always advocate for your book uh

24:54

and you made a good point because it did come out the same year

24:59

um Michael pollan's book came out right like a year later like was it a year

25:04

later I I was in this uh I think it was during the pandemic and

25:11

um I was spiraling into all these psychedelic books and that's how I came across your

25:17

book I I think I just I Googled uh uh psychedelic books

25:24

and I I just started filling uh my Amazon cart with all these different books uh Michael Collins uh yours

25:33

um I think I did I picked up acid dreams too I think I read that one like twice it talks about like the The Counter

25:40

Culture hippier in the 1960s and but yours was like

25:46

those were pretty much like like I said before like um kind of like the Psychedelic guides

25:54

uh Explorer guides that was it was hard to read there was no really how to

26:02

and I think that that that was great that was cool you know and and that's something that you can you can give to

26:08

people oh I'm so glad yeah that's how I really thought of this most of this interview

26:14

is just gonna be me uh telling you how awesome you are I just want to tell you that right now I

26:20

should I shoot more of these

26:30

days [Laughter] no but that was you know the idea to

26:36

like every chapter is like you know like in a a subject in the world of

26:42

psychedelia where it's like if I was talking to my mom it's like how would I describe this as like a set and setting chapter right and there's micro dosing

26:49

and everything how to handle bad trips how to like kind of trip in itself like how do you just like deal with yourself

26:56

when you feel that different it's overwhelming sometimes I know it's scary I still get scared sometimes I do it

27:02

anyway but I get it you know what would you say to like okay so like

27:08

like us three right I can I can lump myself in this conversation but usually no um kind of you know what what to

27:16

expect I mean obviously not every time you expect the same thing right but um we know or at least like for me it's

27:23

more with intent right I'm gonna do it with an intent I go in no knowing that I

27:28

want to possibly get something out of this or you know not just a party thing but for listeners that you know maybe

27:35

think that we're crazy or you know it's wild and psychedelics because I I think

27:41

I I was that person that was always scared and I was like oh no no no no like no like I I don't want to trip the

27:48

way that I see people trip on movies or the way that they depict it right so far I don't want to lose control yeah right

27:55

I know I hear that all the time and that's one of the things that I was so surprised about was you really don't

28:01

lose control you you have control the entire time um but for someone that you know like a

28:06

I don't want to say a naysayer but someone that's that thinking about it but not like a refuter yeah like what

28:13

how would you in a nutshell explain doing psychedelics to someone where it's

28:18

like how would you ease them in right make them feel a little better about it yeah it's a good question it does depend

28:24

on where they're coming from if they're kind of like I can tell they're interested yeah a naysayer you know

28:32

those types where they're like oh but but but they still want to know more like I'm gentle with them I try to like

28:39

explain yeah that it's you know it's not like in the movies it's not

28:46

some big like it can be not big and crazy but a little

28:52

overwhelming you don't lose control you're always yourself though right but it is like seeing yourself

29:00

I think I describe it in the book like from a bird's eye point of view and so I

29:05

usually go in with the intention of just like learning about something about myself right like

29:12

sometimes I have more specific intentions and it depends on like where I am or what's going on in my life

29:19

um but it is just like this six hours that I can just like really reflect and

29:26

I learn a lot I learn a lot about myself it's like therapy in a way

29:31

um I can and sometimes it's hard and that's what you have to I have to be honest too like

29:37

you know sometimes it's sad or sometimes I don't totally like what I see but

29:43

that's all part of it's like part of this learning experience where if I do find something that makes me that I

29:49

don't like like then I can I can see it like with kind of like it's not bad it's

29:55

not like a malviaki right it's like super terrible it's like a learning experience I can maybe figure out why I

30:03

don't like that part about myself or what I can do to change it or if I maybe now that I've seen it I can realize it

30:10

in my everyday working life and make little adjustments or it can be so many different things it can also be like a

30:17

release right like if you take you know when you're like in a tripping dose like

30:23

two three four five grams it can be I can do a lot of like crying you know

30:30

but like it's not sad it's kind of like letting things go that I needed to that

30:36

I didn't even know I was like holding back um or it can be like grieving things I

30:42

didn't know were really bothering me and I can kind of just let them go in that moment like this is my time to grieve

30:48

that thing or I just had this big realization and now I can

30:55

like it's like a release in a way now I can move on and and and I don't have to

31:01

carry it so heavily anymore but not everyone's ready for that right I start talking like this at a party and

31:08

someone's like never mind but I think if you're ready for it some

31:15

people are looking for that yeah but maybe not maybe you want to try micro dosing maybe that's

31:23

easier way in or just see things a little differently like I my friends

31:28

here are pretty scared and I haven't done a full dose with my my best friend here he's not ready and that's okay but

31:36

we have Micro dosed a couple times at camping um and

31:42

my friends are enjoying it you know it's like they're like they're more present they're like you know what I think it

31:47

was I was like more open I was just more in the moment and I'm like yeah that's what it's like okay it just gets like

31:54

bigger and bigger kind of I think sometimes when you're on a higher dose right you're just so in the moment you

32:00

can't imagine not being in the moment absolutely um but that's a beautiful thing because

32:05

I usually live in my head like in the future I'm always like that's anxiety right I'm always like planning or like

32:11

oh Everything feels overwhelming and I need to like get everything done or whatever and and I know that now because

32:17

I I saw it on mushrooms and I saw that I can I'm in control of that right and I

32:23

need to slow that down or else I'm always going to be stressed out and I don't need to be really or it's so many

32:29

things it's hard to describe um but that it can it can help you be just like the best

32:36

version of yourself if that's like how you want to use it it can also be just like a really beautiful eye-opening

32:43

night with like your partner your best friend or maybe a guide or like whatever

32:48

it depends on what you're looking for and that's I think that's why I wrote the book because I think people are

32:54

coming and looking for so many different things and the narrative that's like in

33:00

the mainstream media is kind of like well if you're not like a diagnosed depressed like clinically depressed

33:07

person or whatever like it's still bad and you shouldn't do it and yada yada and I don't think that's true I think

33:13

that it can help anyone if they're open to it um and that it's like a really

33:20

I don't know it's a really big experience that I think can just help you be more self-aware and kind and

33:27

everyone should if that's what they want they should try it right and I think that's where it is

33:33

I think that's where uh where the person has to be open

33:40

to it and and and hopefully they would release all these

33:46

um I guess these I guess stigma around

33:52

um how they feel about it because I I can't imagine uh you know taking

33:58

mushrooms and then also still thinking that there there may be something bad

34:04

that happened to them you know what I mean like I don't I don't I don't see

34:09

that but um I mean I remember the first time that that I tried them I it was

34:17

kind of a a random moment uh a friend of mine was like hey you want to try

34:22

something like sure all right uh I'll I'll try them like it was just

34:28

out of nowhere because I was like you know what I'm I'm not gonna go searching for these um I'm not I'm not gonna go ask around

34:35

but uh they just popped in my hand and I was like okay

34:40

cool so I mean I took him and it was freaking amazing like I I kind of just

34:46

like uh as I was eating them I I was I was like you know what okay everything's

34:51

gonna be fine I just breathe um I did absolutely no zero research uh

34:58

about them so um I didn't uh I didn't I didn't have the

35:04

information that I had now but um I don't know like it it still ended

35:10

up being a very good experience let's see I mean you've read my books so you

35:16

know but my first experience was very similar and it was still so powerful and

35:21

beautiful um it was so eye-opening it was like oh my God yes I knew this place existed

35:28

somewhere I'm glad I found it you know absolutely yes it could be like a

35:33

homecoming it's really beautiful it makes me just feel really correct like not like

35:39

correcting the world like correct with myself you know like finally like oh

35:44

everything makes sense and yeah it's really that's my favorite it only makes

35:50

sense yeah it all that that makes sense every time it makes sense that realization hey like

35:57

that it was like oh whoa hold on and then five minutes later oh oh my God that that makes sense too

36:05

hold on but yeah those those little realization moments like along the way

36:14

um or it's it's amazing I don't know like how do we how do we get somebody to

36:20

be open to that when they have a negative when they have negative thoughts about it already

36:26

it's hard I guess I still haven't figured that out yet you know it's hard to explain to people before they've done

36:33

it isn't it it's like kind of impossible I don't know it's a good question I I

36:39

was that person because I mean we we've been together for almost four years and you know he used to tell me about his

36:45

trips and this and that and I was like I think one of our one of our first can I say this on air like one of our one of

36:52

our first dates I picked her up and I I stopped by uh to to pick up a bag of

36:57

mushrooms and I was like hey you want to see what these they you want to see what they look like

37:03

but it took me almost four years well yeah about four years to kind of finally

37:08

you know give in and and again I think I think it just has to be you have to be

37:14

ready for it um you have to want it right because after after that trip it was

37:20

like a really long trip I think it was like eight hours that we like tripped and it was beautiful we cried we danced

37:26

we wrote We like everything you know and and all I know I I I trust me and after

37:33

I was like I wanted to tell everybody and I and I was like I feel like a crazy

37:39

person that's just like hey believe me believe me but I that's how I felt like I wanted to tell everybody how amazing

37:45

it was and how like not scary it was and the next day you feel amazing and

37:51

energized and happy and things click and for me to try to tell people because I did a couple like of my friends I even

37:58

called like two of my aunts and I was like please don't tell my mom but let me tell you because I have to tell you

38:04

and they were just like okay we support you we won't do it but we support you and I'm like all right like I I'm

38:10

serious about this but no I feel like for me that's the feeling that I got right after yeah definitely it's such a

38:19

beautiful feeling too I was pretty young when I first tried it but I was the same way I was like a senior in high school

38:26

like 17 I think and yeah I was then I got all my friends to try it I was like

38:31

you guys there's this amazing big place we could go to where magic is real

38:38

and everything makes sense and they were like No And I was like yeah

38:44

but yeah I was a bit young it was fun coming back or like you know we under like understanding it more like

38:50

intellectually um doing all that research and everything and figure it felt like I was figuring it out when I was writing the

38:57

book and starting to report on it before that and it's been such a uh yeah

39:02

sometimes I can forget that initial feeling and Ah that's a good reminder I

39:09

appreciate you telling me that story because it is like that and sometimes I forget that's who I'm talking to and I

39:15

do these things or other things you know and it's so true it's a beautiful place

39:21

and I'm glad people are opening up to it you know and like it's being decriminalized

39:26

across the U.S and just more people are talking about it in this way and it's

39:32

really exciting I do think it's it's a good thing it's not like

39:37

I don't know not that even other drugs are like bad or whatever but it's it is

39:43

a little different it is just like and you this the next day too you feel

39:49

so good it's even not like um alcohol or even like LSD I get like

39:54

so tired the next day and like or alcohol I'm such a mess I can't have more than like two drinks and I'm a mess

40:01

now and ah yeah I know it's it's an exciting

40:06

time I'm really glad that the World's opening up to it it makes you wonder like why now but we do have so many

40:13

things to deal with so it yeah like feels pretty Cosmic

40:19

yeah it it's been since like I want to say what like 1960s

40:24

eight something like that that they they stopped clinical trials of of psilocybin

40:31

oh I think you're right that's the year or right around then it was yeah I have

40:38

the exact year in the book I think the Controlled Substances Act it was like 1972 72 yeah but before that it started

40:47

to become illegal and they stopped studies yeah it was right around that it's in the Jim fatiman's book too yeah

40:53

exactly which was in in the the cool thing about when I started uh reading

40:58

all these books was that like they were all like of course they were transparent with the information but like

41:06

um like all these timelines really like matched up and like even I think you had

41:12

some sighted words from from fatiman's book and I was like oh my gosh like I

41:18

it's like it's a whole puzzle piece like it's it's history it's psychology it's

41:25

uh mycology right uh and and uh just science and

41:31

um all these different things all talking about like this same thing and I

41:36

don't know I was like I'm super excited I I if not more now than I was when I

41:43

first started um started reading about these substances and and learning about

41:49

them and and uh chasing information I want to say about these things and just

41:55

like Amber said like I I still I I don't I probably won't ever stop talking about

42:03

uh mushrooms or or psilocybin or any type of plant medicine because I'd I

42:08

don't know like people need to know like they they they they they every person needs to experience this I I feel

42:16

everyone who wants to and if everybody wants you don't want to yeah we just need to change their mind we we said one

42:24

time we were tripping and we were you know I mean we're we're a couple so we you know we were hashing out you know

42:30

just a couple things and you know love and everything and then at the end I was like you know what they should put

42:36

people that like really hate each other or have a lot of issues in one room and

42:42

give them mushrooms I'm like I'm sure everything will clear up and and that's how I feel like it is it's like therapy

42:48

like it helps you work through things even with yourself or with someone that

42:54

you're there doing it with it is it can it's it's I know it can it

42:59

could be fun too right and I kind of love those moments when you're with a loved one and you're hashing things I know exactly what you meantly did yes

43:06

those are my favorite moments it's usually like after the come up right and you get through all the kind of like

43:12

nasty I do hate the come up and I I do like to warn people like just just bear

43:17

with me this first like hour it's gonna be fine because it can be kind of just

43:22

like you know a bit nauseous a bit like anxious but then once you like kind of

43:28

arrive at that place um oh it's so beautiful one of my oldest

43:34

friends and I who I actually from the beginning my in the beginning of my book when I talk about my first

43:40

mushroom trip and I say goodbye to my friend in his driveway and I go home and then I end up having my big experience

43:48

um we're still we're still really close we've been friends since the fourth grade and um he comes down to visit me

43:54

like once a year and we do usually indulge in a few grams somewhere

43:59

beautiful like we'll go with Beach or something and we'll just like talk and be silly you know or make up stories

44:04

like look at the stars and make up our own mythologies or just like it's just

44:09

so beautiful we can talk about anything and with my my partner too my husband like we you know we love going into that

44:16

space together we don't do it that often but a few times a year we love going

44:21

camping um Building A Fire inviting some friends maybe and just like taking a few grams

44:29

and just like connecting and just being open and silly or hashing things out and

44:35

it's it's just really special place and I'm so glad we can go to together

44:40

do you think that um there I mean of course your environment has uh has some significance

44:49

to your psychedelic trip do you do you do you think more or less that uh you

44:56

know having experience inside versus outside is better or vice versa do you have uh do you have a thought on that

45:03

yeah that's a bit it's a good question I personally think that like

45:09

folks should be comfortable you know wherever you feel really safe and comfortable especially for like your

45:15

earlier experiences um that's the most important my partner

45:21

will disagree he will tell you he has to be outside he hates being inside when we

45:26

trip he thinks he's just like he feels clustered from it like the walls are coming in he's just like no we have to

45:32

and I do I do also like being outside it can just be like

45:37

you do get that like connection to Nature feeling like I love looking at the stars or fire or if it's in the day

45:45

you know and you're in a beautiful place and you can just kind of Marvel at the grass so the way the light hits the

45:51

leaves and it just can really connect with nature and it just feels all very

45:56

natural and right but I think folks need to decide for themselves I don't know like I like having a beautiful outdoor

46:03

place with a comfortable inside like available okay like if you have like so there's this

46:11

hotel that my partner and I really like um on the oaxacan coast that just has

46:16

these really beautiful views of the sea and these like big pretty Gardens you

46:21

feel like kind of private from the other rooms you can't like see them because there's all this Lush like tropical plants

46:28

um and then inside it's comfortable there's a nice bed we have a private bathroom there's even an air conditioner so like we spend most of the time

46:36

outside talking and looking at the trees and it's beautiful but like if you want to go lay in the bed you can right you

46:43

don't have to pee in the woods like you know things like that are kind of nice but I'm an outdoor person in general so

46:51

I would I vote for outside okay you got two votes for for outside

46:57

okay yeah I mean most of my experiences have been inside

47:04

uh at night and and I'm I'm still planning for that big experience outside

47:15

yeah and that's kind of it can write if you don't live somewhere I mean I think that's hard like I'm from

47:21

a city right I guess that like you're not gonna go to a public park you know you need to find like a private place

47:26

and you can't like you don't want to drive your car there's like a lot of variables so I get it's harder but when

47:33

you find that special spot it's it's nice you have like this little camping spot we love it's always super private

47:40

but I'm a really private person I really don't want to see anyone when I'm in that space it just like bugs me out I

47:47

don't want to like have to wave just so I don't know I can do right but I don't want to if I can help I don't want to

47:53

see people I really don't I thought I was the only one because a last trip

47:59

that I had um people arrived where we were at and I was like uh

48:07

and the vibe gets weird yeah they're so nice they're people that I have been in

48:13

my life I've known for years right yes I can conversate everything and it just happened and I was like I don't want to

48:19

talk talk I don't want to say hi I don't want to have to entertain anyone like I don't know it was just like and and

48:25

girls like but but you talk to me and I'm like yeah but it just feels so different like and and I felt really bad

48:32

that I felt that but I just couldn't entertain someone and especially you're

48:39

just not I agree me too that actually happened to me a couple years ago my friends and I

48:47

were at a beach house and like half of us took a little bit and the other half did it and even though they're my best

48:54

they're all like two of my best friends was my best friend from New York and my best friend from Mexico and they love each other and it's like a good time

49:00

we're spending all day at the beach but yeah when some people weren't shipping

49:05

and then I felt bad and I couldn't like translate and go back and forth as easily like I was the middle man right I

49:11

was like the and I just couldn't I was like you guys I'm sorry like not right now but they got it they didn't care but

49:18

it was like there was just too many variables to keep track of I just wanted to go with the like mushroom flow you

49:25

know what I mean yeah man I can I can't imagine trying to host something like

49:32

that and then going back and forth and translating too I'm like I think brain

49:37

only works in one language when I'm tripping is it usually Spanish

49:42

or is it English it it varies it varies oh my God that's cool that's cool

49:49

um Michelle said what would you say for some of our listeners that you know don't know

49:55

um a lot about um psychedelics and mushrooms like what what do you say are some benefits for us

50:01

or for for them um kind of doing um psychedelics or mushrooms yeah I mean

50:07

we've definitely talked about a bunch of them I think being just more open and honest and

50:12

self-aware with yourself is a big one I think that's how it helps me the most it's kind of like it knocks down all

50:20

your like [ __ ] filters and you can kind of just get in touch with just like what you really care about or who you

50:26

really are or what you know like when everything else is Stripped Away like what's left and I think that's a really

50:32

beautiful thing to learn about yourself um it can also help you connect with

50:38

loved ones right it can help you and they also like therapeutically there are

50:43

all these um benefits there's so much more to it like with all the scientific studies and

50:49

everything I'm not even super up to date right now on but there's so many coming

50:55

out and it's really beautiful um I think that like if you're looking

51:01

for something that mushrooms might do it you know like do some homework but like I do feel like they're not a cure-all

51:09

definitely not but I do think that like modern life is just like really

51:14

stressful and we live in a very weird time and we're dealing with so much all

51:20

the time and it's really kind of nice to know that there's this pretty easy to

51:25

get or to grow substance that grows all over the world and you just eat a few

51:32

dried grams of them or even less even like micro dosing or everyone's different with their dosage and I

51:38

respect that but um that you just eat a little bit of this natural fungi and you can

51:46

you can kind of like breathe you can go to this really just like pure space

51:51

that's not super like um inundated with like all the stresses

51:57

of modern life and all the other stuff you worry about you can be in the moment

52:02

just with yourself and who you're with the place you're in and it's really great to know that that

52:08

that's there it's not really an Escape right because you're still you you don't lose control you don't go somewhere else

52:14

if you take really high doses I've heard it can be a little and close your eyes

52:20

and it can be a little bit like another place but I've never even gone like that that deep like but I I think there's so

52:28

many benefits but I do think it can just help you get in touch with who you are and what you want to be and you can you

52:35

kind of bring that spirit with you back into the world and and and along with the benefits how

52:42

how also important is to is the integration period after your experience

52:49

well if you are doing mushrooms for some kind of um like therapeutic reason or if your

52:55

intention is like deeper like more specific um then yeah then integration is

53:03

important and I think integration just like tripping or just like what you're looking for is different for everyone I

53:10

have a lot of advice in the book on on ways to integrate but basically we mean right like

53:17

figuring out what your lessons or your realizations were and how you can apply

53:25

them to your life or to your intention um and there's a lot to be said about

53:30

that it's really powerful I think it is really it's not just like take the mushroom and change right take the

53:37

mushrooms see how you have to change and then the integration part is is making

53:43

those changes or doing whatever it is that you know maybe you think is making

53:48

you unhappy or a little sick or like whatever it could be so many things right it can be I need to exercise more

53:55

I need to call my mom more it could be so many yeah absolutely

54:01

um but it's listening and following through that's hard that's the hardest part it seems really easy and like

54:07

powerful when you're on mushrooms you're like oh the answer is just calling my mom and I know that's it that's right

54:13

right but then when it comes down to it and you're like I should really call her

54:19

today like you gotta do it so I mean

54:25

um with that uh wow my next question was about integration also but

54:32

um uh man I missed it uh it integration is

54:38

uh maybe uh to Define it right Michelle is uh integrating what you learned in

54:47

your or what you experienced during your psychedelic trip and applying that to your everyday life did I get that

54:54

correct I think yeah that's what it means to me anyway okay and sometimes um

55:00

and I explained in the book like sometimes you still don't know right you come out of the trip and you're like

55:06

wait I didn't get an announced I was looking for an answer and I still don't have it and I think

55:11

um you can still kind of like use that experience to figure it out and there's

55:16

you know if people like to do all sorts of different things and I have my ideas in the book like how you can still come

55:23

like digest and figure out your trip and you know walking in nature or yoga or

55:31

like you know there's all different ways that are kind of just like meditation like ways to clear your mind or get back

55:37

in touch with yourself and with your intentions or with nature right

55:42

um inspire all the kinds of things that mushrooms make you feel like how can you get to that place just in you know on a

55:49

weeknight and um and you can still kind of find answers there if you just just thinking

55:56

about it right keep digesting it don't just like throw it under the bed as like a weird night like keep

56:03

thinking about a journal about it that's my big thing I'm a writer right but of course

56:10

um after a trip or I like to try to journal a little before kind of see how I'm feeling what my intentions are do a

56:17

little bit after maybe the day after if I'm really tired and then come back to

56:22

it maybe before my next trip read what I was feeling last time you can kind of see how much you've grown or what's

56:29

happened since then or what you were looking for before and what you found after and how different they were or

56:35

whatever it can be really interesting so from uh from there

56:42

um what what did you what did you pull up here oh number I'm I'm just I'm just don't

56:48

mind me oh okay sorry she she pulled up something up there

56:53

um yeah because I seen I seen this uh this photo it was like this photo like

56:59

this meme looking thing and it it said that um it said that like when you change when

57:07

you take mushrooms they don't they don't change you they they show you the way to

57:12

change right and I believe there's there's also like a there's a comedian that did a bit

57:18

about it it's like if you take mushrooms and you're an [ __ ]

57:23

um you're you're still you're still gonna be an [ __ ] you're just High yeah right I forget who do you remember

57:31

who it is I I remember thinking like I heard it gets it yeah exactly that's when I heard that

57:38

when I heard that uh that audio bit I was just like yeah he's he's tripped before and he understands it man and he

57:45

understands it but it's completely true can we look that up can you look that up Amber I I

57:52

want to hear that clip but um it's it's exactly true because I mean you I mean

57:59

that's what I first thought I was like uh like even before uh trying

58:04

um psilocybin like I I was like okay like am I gonna have this experience in the

58:10

completely change as a person I think you only you learn by experience right

58:16

like you're if you're the [ __ ] and and you take mushrooms and you can still be an [ __ ] after that or anybody else

58:24

can I know if you're an [ __ ] I go I'm sorry not everybody's an [ __ ] but you

58:30

know what I mean well you know what could happen is maybe the mushrooms will help you realize that you're really

58:35

exactly and you could then you can start working it out

58:40

yeah totally but you know I've had people tell me that's part of what they're afraid of they're like well I

58:46

don't wanna change gonna be a totally different person and I look at them I'm like that's

58:53

so who works but okay like I get where you're coming from of course they hear a

58:58

story of someone who did right they're like well my friend's kid after he took mushrooms he like I don't know moved in

59:06

a van and drove across the country and never came back I guess that's probably the story my mom tells me oh yeah she

59:11

moved to Mexico and she never came here but I don't know I think I heard that one too

59:18

but yeah it's it's it's not that simple right I mean you can come back feeling a

59:25

lot lighter or something yeah but a totally different person I mean I wish there was a drug for that I still don't

59:31

think another question too and and um

59:36

um and then uh we can we can wrap it up but so I

59:42

I I'm not trying to make a fat joke about myself right now but I I'm

59:48

I'm thinking as as like maybe I'm getting older than uh the or maybe it's

59:54

the there's all these different variables that I'm thinking about right it could be it could be a weight gain it

1:00:00

could be maybe the mushrooms that I've taken have uh are less concentrated with

1:00:07

psilocybin but is there weight mass or is this body mass compared to to

1:00:13

psilocybin is there any correlation with that do you know I think there is I mean

1:00:20

for I know when they do the clinical studies with isolated psilocybin and not

1:00:25

mushrooms they do calculate your dose like by your weight okay however I also

1:00:32

I I don't know I think it really depends on a lot of things like so I don't I'm smaller but I need a lot

1:00:40

of mushrooms to feel it like it's like my brain is thicker so I like my skull is thick and I need a lot so my brain's

1:00:46

fat it's not me it's just my brain okay it's a compliment

1:00:52

I don't know or like people have thicker personalities or something I need like a lot to crack through me okay and I have

1:00:59

some friends who are a lot bigger than me and who are really sensitive we also might have a tolerance even though we're

1:01:05

not like eating them every day right we know what to expect and maybe we need a little more to get to that place but

1:01:13

mushrooms also really vary in strength and if they're not that fresh I think

1:01:18

they lose their strength okay sometimes it can like deteriorate yeah that's

1:01:23

happened to me or I've eaten some mushrooms that I've had around for a couple months and I don't really have

1:01:28

much of an experience so definitely there's a lot there's variables right magic it's just it's the magic okay I

1:01:36

have one more question let's go with that sure I'm here what's your question

1:01:42

I guess for me like I I know that there's indigenous tribes like in Mexico

1:01:47

that do use you know psychedelics and things like but are there still like is there still

1:01:53

a lot now like to date that still use it like ceremonial wise or or on a daily

1:01:59

basis or or how well yeah realm definitely so in Oaxaca mostly is

1:02:09

where well actually that's not even true like there's there's there's other groups in other places too I think

1:02:16

um but the I've gone to one city in Oaxaca in the mountains

1:02:23

where Maria Sabina is from and mushrooms are still a very big part of their

1:02:28

culture and tradition it's amazing it's really beautiful it is ceremonial

1:02:34

um it is mostly for like serious problems you know it is like medicine

1:02:39

it's really serious medicine um I have a bit in my book where my

1:02:45

source a friend of mine who's from that up there um the Mazda Tech Community uh he told

1:02:51

me they did a mushroom ceremony when his mom was diagnosed with cancer

1:02:57

um and she also went and had a surgery like in Puebla I'm pretty sure but she did both she had a ceremony with her

1:03:03

family because that's also the traditional way you don't go alone like you usually go with your whole family and you all eat the mushrooms together

1:03:09

and like feel the spirit of the mushrooms and it's all very deeply connected to their spirituality with the

1:03:16

mountains and there's like Guardians and the mountains and the water and everything it's really beautiful

1:03:23

um and yet he told me that after they did that mushroom ceremony and his mom had surgery her cancer was gone and it's

1:03:30

still gone yeah the power of intention I think and

1:03:36

you know it's a lot to it but there are other groups too and and it's like

1:03:41

becoming more popular again so it's like also there are you know people that

1:03:46

maybe haven't like communities that maybe haven't done it so much but there's more interest now and they're

1:03:52

doing it more and things like that it works like that sometimes right like ebb and flow

1:03:58

um but definitely it's really beautiful and interesting and fascinating to learn about

1:04:03

Michelle do you have any um uh do you have anything that you're working on currently now uh I hope in the future to

1:04:12

like any other uh part maybe my psilocybin companion part two maybe

1:04:19

I'm not working on that yet but I do keep keep thinking about I would like to

1:04:24

do like maybe a second edition update the research

1:04:29

some more that I've learned but it's not in the works I haven't um I'm not officially working on that I

1:04:36

have been trying to write a novel oh nice nice yeah it's like where my head

1:04:42

has been at recently is very psychedelic inspired that's awesome but it is

1:04:47

science fiction and maybe involves contacting aliens with DMT maybe

1:04:55

still finger it all out but that is awesome it's just a work in progress but

1:05:02

it's really been getting my like juices flowing again so it's exciting and yeah thank you how much um how much uh DMT

1:05:10

experience do you have one last question I'll let you go I promise we're like one one

1:05:23

oh wow okay and every time it's been totally batshit crazy and different and

1:05:29

it's really fascinating and it just I don't know it's just this endlessly

1:05:35

interesting world that I am terrified of

1:05:41

that is just getting my creative juices flowing it really feels like you go kind of somewhere else and there are

1:05:48

things there that have nothing to do with you that have their own motives and it's just this wild weird little world

1:05:54

it's not really like a very therapeutic thing for me although I've read there's some studies coming out that is helping

1:06:00

people with like depression and stuff wow okay but for me it's just this very interesting weird very weird place that

1:06:08

is just inspiring me creatively to pursue more science fiction so what

1:06:14

would you what would you tell somebody right now uh that is preparing themselves for

1:06:21

their first DMT trip

1:06:28

okay I mean I don't know just it's like not I

1:06:34

don't know it's it's a little scary I think that it's scary but try not to let your fear get

1:06:41

the best of you I suppose because I've just kind of been dealing with my fear I think every time I've broken through

1:06:47

it's just kind of like DMT being like you're still [ __ ] terrified and I'm like I know

1:06:53

and they're like just let that go and we can show you more stuff and I'm like I can't let go and order so I don't know I

1:07:01

don't have any answers that I'm not a pro but it's exciting it's weird it's

1:07:06

it's if you want something totally different it's DMT have you had when the

1:07:12

times that you have like broken through is someone there with you or is just you completely

1:07:17

I yeah no I have met like a couple entities they're kind of more like

1:07:23

presents than I like see like an alien or something oh okay and it's kind of

1:07:28

like it's hard to tell if it's like me thinking or it's like another voice in my head because it is like my voice but

1:07:36

it feels kind of other it's it's hard to explain but I've never really had that on

1:07:42

mushrooms you know I don't really like see a lot of things things like breathe and move around but I'm not the kind

1:07:47

that like has a spirit animal with me all the time or something so yeah and

1:07:52

there are people and I that's cool but yeah I'm I don't know I'm still pretty grounded even when I eat mushrooms but

1:07:58

DMT is something else and the times that you you did try the DMT were you with

1:08:05

with the group was it just you and somebody else or uh I mean how did how

1:08:11

did that I'm looking into doing a fiber Mayo ceremony here but no I've just um been

1:08:18

doing it here on my home um yeah I tell my partner what I'm doing

1:08:24

but actually I like to be alone because you are just kind of like you just kind of close your eyes it's like five minutes it's all very quick I tell my

1:08:31

husband what I'm doing and he's like okay babe I'll see you in like 20 minutes I'm like yeah I love you for

1:08:37

dinner have dinner ready when uh when I'm done

1:08:44

that's awesome Michelle thanks for coming out and and and and thank you for

1:08:50

hanging out with me for about an hour um me and Amber so go ahead and share uh

1:08:57

what you got going on yeah no thank you again so much for inviting me you and Amber I really

1:09:03

appreciate it um my book is your psilocybin mushroom companion it's available

1:09:09

everywhere Amazon um bookshop.org I sell it also on my

1:09:15

website if you're in the US Michelle ginnickian.com and that's also where you can find my past articles other podcasts

1:09:22

I've done um in my Instagram all my social media is looked up linked up on there so lots

1:09:29

of good stuff on there contact form as well if you're looking to get in touch

1:09:34

and yeah that's about it for now working on this other book but it's gonna take a

1:09:39

while so I'm excited for that oh thank you I'm really excited

1:09:45

it's a work in progress I'm like learning how to write a novel at the same time oh yeah okay yeah because

1:09:50

you're used to being a journalist right it's totally different type of style

1:09:56

transition I'm liking it and

1:10:01

the things too and yeah most active on my Instagram so I'll be posting updates

1:10:06

and um other you know opportunities to see me speak or whatever up on there so when

1:10:13

are you back in the States I don't know yet but I might be doing

1:10:18

actually I might be doing an event in Southern California this spring or summer I'll definitely let you know but

1:10:25

it's not confirmed so okay I won't I'm dropped that one quite yet I might be

1:10:31

coming to the San Diego area nice uh in June but we'll see yeah

1:10:38

awesome uh thanks again Michelle for coming out and and doing the podcast I

1:10:43

appreciate it thank you I thank you so much the Mindless [Music]